Wednesday, November 14, 2007

What are the issues with bandog’s and their failure to do sport? Are people trying and failing, or is their a total lack of effort or a combo of both?

Q8. What are the issues with bandog’s and their failure to do sport? Are people trying and failing, or is their a total lack of effort or a combo of both?

Ancient GR: A8. Most of the bandog programs worldwide do not produce "all around" dogs. As a result, most of the tries are doomed to fail. If you also add a general lack of effort, then the result is exactly what you describe. Question is: is the profile of a bandog owner the same with an owner of a Malinois?

DanUK: Again, agreed in all aspects. See the answer to question three for clarification as to why this is. In answer to profiling, the typical Malinois owner in my experience, specifically sought out the breed in order to partake in a particular sport/activity for which they are/have desire to be involved; be this protection, tracking, OB, agility based or a sport encompassing elements of some or all of the aforementioned disciplines.

Katrina Hartwell AU: I believe there are many factors. I have only sold 2 Bandog’s as protection sport candidates. They are both too young to see if they will be successful. There is much prejudice against off breeds, in Australia they are simply not able to compete or train in Schutzhund makes it difficult to achieve credibility when you can’t play on the same field.

Many trainers are accustomed to training herder types so won't get the results they should with a mastiff types. I don't believe that most people have determination it takes to stick with training long enough to be successful and would rather buy a going dog, or one of a breed they will get quick results and lots of support with.

E-Dog US: In regards to a Bandog’s in sport... I think there are many variables...

1. Breeding & Temperament: There are a lot of bandog’s being bred by people with no goal in mind and very few have a goal of what they want in the temperament of their dogs. Mostly breeding for looks and F-1 crosses.

2. The type of people who like Bandog’s and are willing to own one are not necessarily "Sport" minded people. Most are looking for a big dog to love/protect their family.

3. If you do find a bandog in a Sport situation it is rare that a sport trainer can or will do the work required to title such a dog. I know my Bandog is a mystery to most that get in front of him. He knows it's a game when the equipment is on and he has a high defensive threshold. So there is a grey area that needs to be made more clear and I attribute most of that to his poor foundation caused by decoys that were inexperienced in reading this type of dog and working him correctly. MaTi did a great job with him when he came out here reading and reacting to him very well. (Wish you were training out here brudah)

I don't think that is the Bandog that is the reasons that there aren't more of them titled out there but politics, dedication and the mindset of the people in the sports that hold them back... Either way I think if you want to do sport work with your bandog ... go for it. It’s fun and you will learn a lot about yourself and training. I think it will also give you an appreciation for all of the time and hard work that goes into training and titling a sport dog. And if you don't want to do sport work do something ... Give that dog a daily JOB and put some good OB on him / her, increase your bond with them and love the heck out of them... JMO

Roger Williams US: There is not one breed of dog that didn't become less (or at least drastically changed) with huge popularity. It's human nature. I have had this conversation with otherwise good Judokas that are constantly trying to make Judo more popular, to the extent that they can't see that they are perfectly willing to change the art to be more appealing to people, either by making it easy to promote children or turning it totally into MMA. The art loses. I don't want the country full of Judo McDojos as happened with TaeKwondo or BJJ, anymore than I want the country full of ball crazy Bandog’s, changed to fit Chello's sport expectations - or lobotomized and crippled, changed to fit a blue haired old woman's expectations on the show bench, or, as “courtyard guardians.”

I have flirted with the idea of having a totally utilitarian way of third party evaluation (testing) a Bandog's skills, but unfortunately I can't get the human quotient out of it that tends to bring in politics, favoritism, etc. I’m working on it always, though, just for our own dogs and for our own needs. Bandog breeders should probably start a club with past problems in mind; I guess I would be open. Clubs and organizations always start out with the best intentions, but seldom do they work. As far as the questions, I think a well trained protection Bandog could compete in sports, why not? - I'd like to get some of ours to sport trainers to find out, but they’d probably not always be a high scorer... and of course it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. They will be great for what you breed for, if you breed great dogs. Although it's hard to acquire the right dogs to breed in order to breed great Bandog’s, the main problem with Bandog’s (or Performance Neapolitans, or AB's before they were softened up and sporterized) is not necessarily creating them, it's finding people who can take care of them with the security and liability issues. You have to worry about that before you ever think about what they can do to advance them on a sport field. There are a lot of people on this board that, what a great idea, a fully functional Mastiff...but that doesn't give qualified homes to a litter of puppies.

Philippe Roy CA: I have often stated the biggest two problems with Bandogges are dogs and owners lacking in drive.

Clinton Cillers ZA: With the correct imprinting from a pup I don’t see why a Bandog can not give a good showing of sport work. The progression might be a bit slower and the final product a little less polished but it should be credible nonetheless. When I was involved in SCH there were Boxer breeders that came and trained their dogs, many laughs and sniggles but eventually when their dogs started to become proficient, even though no where near the same class as the GSD’s, people started showing them and their dogs some real respect for their perseverance and the dogs gave a good showing.

I think Bandog owners should pursue any avenue they enjoy with their dogs, and if the dog is capable of working on a higher level so be it. Hats off to those working BB also since that is a huge challenge in itself but can be very rewarding. One problem is that these dogs seldom end up with truly capable people for various reasons.

A good dog is were you find it period and as far as sport vs. real protection there is no correlation, some dogs will protect but not do sport some will do sport but honestly wont protect and some do it all. Some sport dogs cross train well into active pp roles; the two are not mutually exclusive.

Decide what your needs are and get the dog accordingly, most sport people are full of it but the real dog men will recognize a decent dog for what it is. We have a truly top SCH trainer here that loves and admires the APBT. AND HAS WORKED A FEW it has helped him shed his blinkers so to speak.

MaTi US: Sport is slowly, politically being snuffed out. Without Sport none of us will be able to have guard dogs. Sport does what it was intended to. It makes an impression.

Sport allows the public to see dogs in control. Dogs working with a human. Dog's that chase, stop, hold, retrieve, track, search and Focus. Sport proves dogs are dependable.

When the public sees this it validates the usefulness of the K9 in everyday life. It implies that K9's are trustworthy, intelligent, obedient, and they will work for you.

In the real world when a dog attacks someone you can look at it many ways.
If you take your Sport dog off the field to the street and it shows the same obedience... the public will condone you.

Take a PP dog out on the field and show everyone how you have no obedience on the dog and many people would just as soon have your dog non-existent.

When you tell your "PP" dog what to do and it doesn't, anyone observing the scenario becomes concerned for their well-being and for others. NOT good.

If your PP dog is aggressively going for something (plant/animal/human) and you tell him to stop where he/she shows NO RESPECT TO YOU...EVERYONE BECOMES CONCERNED.

Sport often is a game. Many people would rather play games (minus the Russians) so usually anything SPORT justifies the existence of our K9's. Whether it provokes a facade or not, this concept is extremely important to the existence of working dogs.
Sport allows the public to believe that a guard dog can be obedient and social in itself.

Guard dogs or PP dogs look like loose cannons to the public. Without Schutzhund...the German shepherd dog may not exist. Police/military dogs justify having a K9 to do "man work". We as civilians have the privilege of breeding/training dogs of our liking. If the "Courage test" is taken out of Schutzhund..we may all be doomed.

Cath US: *** But if a dog is "real" why can't it do sport, even at the lower levels?

Why undo training just to get a title? If your dog already has shown it will protect and/or man track and/or do a lot of other things what will a title add?

Some people just don't like sport and find everything about it boring. I won't name any names. LOL To each his own and at the end of the day all that matters is are you happy with your dog.